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DrTeeth Let me start it as it has not appeared, surprisingly.

DRM sucks 110%. All it does is restrict legitimate users and does not stop piracy at all.

One of the latest offerings (docLock) only offers *1* install per footprint. So I am not allowed to multiboot? The phrase about 'shooting' and 'in one's foot' springs to mind.

        Nov 12 2010 at 10:19pm
_*_ Well, I am very mixed regarding DRM after yesterday's Home Document Manager postings. I try hard not to be rude when posting and the same is true of this post.

The vendor from what appeared to me sought to minimize user of Bits du Jour, and indicated the only reason he sells here is for future ideas.

First, I cannot believe that, as any business is after the bottom line, and to make the money form its product. The vendor may not make as much up front on Bits sales, but he gains customers to sell to year after year int he future.

To dismiss Bits users was uncalled for and came across as an attempt to, "put us in our place."

The second thing that was a little surprising is Roger calling people that express an opinion as a "DRM crusade" and labeled posts that referred to DRM in a negative light as "rants".

I know there is a balance between securing vendors that will sell their product on Bits and keeping customers happy, but yesterday for me it was much clearer where the customer stood; if that customer does not like, or accept the idea of DRM.

My initial post was nothing more than disappointment that the DRM status was not listed in the "Policy" area as I would not have downloaded and installed the trial of the product int he first place.
My second post only came after the vendor remarked about Bits customers. I in no ranted about DRM.

In fact the vendor quoted my post where I said DRM feels secretive, but in fact if you reread all the posts the vendor is never forthcoming on how many installs are allowed on a system.

I intend to keep using Bits, but Roger and company should look to serve the portion of their customers that dislike, and do not wish to use DRM laden products.

I know we may be in the minority (not sure about that actually), but that does not mean our voice should be pigeon-holed and told to speak about this "only" in a forum topic where no one will really see it, and the vendor will blissfully think all is well and no one has a contrary position.

I hope that DRM talk will not be stifled in the product postings, but I understand that rants should not be accepted either.
        Nov 13 2010 at 2:36am
Roger Thomasson @M B

You seem to imply that I was describing your personal post as a rant. Not true of course. If I had been, I'd have led with an '@M B' :-)

"I intend to keep using Bits, but Roger and company should look to serve the portion of their customers that dislike, and do not wish to use DRM laden products."

As other commenters mentioned, both XYPlorer and PDF Annototar (featured last week) were DRM-Free. Seems to me that we're doing a pretty good job of serving our anti-DRM customers :-)

In conclusion, yes, of course you can still make your DRM comments on product postings. Just keep them concise and product-specific. Posts that are focused on DRM as 'an issue' will be moved here.

        Nov 13 2010 at 3:48am
DrTeeth It is very difficult, even impossible, to keep a general issue like DRM product specific. I appreciate that there is a fine line for you to tread as mod.

Whilst I have a marked aversion to DRM, some vendors are fair in having a high number of installs. Having one install per footprint is frankly politeness mode taking the mick /politeness mode. That vendor is saying that he disapproves of multibooting environments.

Whilst it is for consumers to decide what to buy, IMHO an overly restrictive licence can tarnish the good name of BdJ.

With kind regards (honest g).
        Nov 13 2010 at 4:31am
Roger Thomasson @ Guy

I understand -- to a certain extent any DRM complaint is going to reference the larger issues at play. I guess this is where I'll have to use my judgement as moderator. I'll do my best to be fair, I promise!

        Nov 13 2010 at 4:44am
_*_ Roger, thank you for the reply. I was not implying my post solely, but your comments came across as toward all DRM postings; which I was one of in the thread.

I agree that you are doing a good job of providing programs that are DRM free. I am however assuming (I know that is dangerous!), that it just "happens" they are DRM free and not intentional.

Roger, thank you for not banning talk of DRM in threads regarding programs for sale. I think it is good for vendors to hear how some customers feel and why they are losing a sale.

Yesterday, I honestly thought the vendor was rude, and I attribute it in part to him not liking people's stance on DRM regarding his product.
        Nov 13 2010 at 4:32am
Roger Thomasson I actually thought Tim handled himself quite well amidst the onslaught.

He not only managed to address nearly every question (non-DRM or otherwise) with aplomb, he went so far as to literally release not one, but two BUILDS over the course of the promotion!

I'm sorry -- I must vehemently disagree with your belief that the publisher was rude. I've read the entire thread three times now and am honestly shocked that you would perceive it that way.

        Nov 13 2010 at 5:31am
_*_ OK, but what would you call it when it calls out Bits users when he says,

"With regards to DRM - in two years of selling Home Document Manager, the *only* complaints we've had about hardware locking licenses have come from Bits du Jour, which represents a fraction of 1% of our business."?

If it is not rude, it clearly was uncalled for him to type only as *only*, (in regard to bits customers), and mention that Bits is fraction of 1% of his business.

Is he not saying something along the line of, "I really do not care what you think since your are the only ones talking about DRM, and do not really need your business afterall"?

I am open to have you tell me as a bits user what he was getting at, and why I am way off base thinking this way.
        Nov 13 2010 at 7:44am
Rubby the duck I am astonished about the certainty how a written text is being interpreted. If one wants to be sure about a meaning of a statement it is always best to ask the sender of the news himself.

A very interesting read might be Friedemann Schulz von Thun. He developed the four sides model:

I personally don't consider the above mentioned sentence as rude. It is simply a statement (matter layer).
        Nov 13 2010 at 5:39pm
_*_ C. Roth, I am not sure where you are finding certainty in my post as I clearly asked if I am off base what does his statement mean.

His statement is not done in a vacuum, but in a context of a DRM dispute and so his statement has to convey some sort of meaning behind it, or why would he say it in the first place?

I asked an honest question of if I am wrong what does he mean when he asterisks the word only, if he is simply making a statement, or why does it matter to conversation that Bits is less than 1% of his overall sales?

What was the need to write this; no one asked for such information?

It seems that you are certain of my certainty of what he means. I took a shot at what I believed he was getting at, and wonder what others think he meant with his needed statement.

I am more than willing to stand corrected; I just do not see the need for his statement, unless he is trying to make a statement.
        Nov 14 2010 at 4:42am
Mike G It should be no surprise that everyone will have their subjective interpretation of the vendor's "fraction of 1%" remark. To me it was defensive if nothing else, but understandable given the comments were turning into a referendum on DRM.

I think Roger supplied the fairest possible solution in allowing the debate to continue in a more appropriate place.

My feelings on DRM are split. I don't like it either, but it almost certainly reduces casual theft. The anti-DRM movement may win some compromises here and there. But, until humans evolve to a 99% honesty rate and/or a culture that doesn't require money to survive, some form of DRM is probably here to stay.
        Nov 14 2010 at 6:07am
Roger Thomasson I vote that we redirect this conversation away from paragraph analysis and back to the DRM debate.

All in favor?
        Nov 14 2010 at 9:00am
_*_ Aye!
        Nov 14 2010 at 9:18am
Roger Thomasson :-)
        Nov 14 2010 at 9:42am
Mike G I thought I just made a smooth segway back to DRM (3rd paragraph). I'm also in favor of staying on topic. ;-]
        Nov 14 2010 at 2:19pm
Roger Thomasson And smooth it was -- consider my comment further incentive to follow your excellent segue :-)
        Nov 15 2010 at 12:20am
Mike G Thanks. And now I know how to spell seque. Always learning something new on BDJ! :-]
        Nov 15 2010 at 2:18am
Roger Thomasson I believe you were thinking of this :-)
        Nov 15 2010 at 3:13am
Mike G I want one!
        Nov 15 2010 at 2:26pm
DrTeeth Editor's Note: This comment was moved from the DA Document Manager comments board, where it originally appeared.

@ Wm Shore

Backing up to different hardware (which can be easily done) can break DRM so a backup WON'T necessarily help.

What if the company goes bust?
        Jan 21 2011 at 1:22am
Jason Howard Editor's Note: This comment was moved from the WeBuilder 2010 comments board, where it originally appeared.

@Roberto, that's true.

DRM really isn't a reliable way to enforce license compliance, because users who want to break the rules will just locate a hacked copy of the software without the DRM.

The software pirates will download a copy without any DRM or limitations - it won't have any effect on them whatsoever. (other than perhaps a 24-48 hour delay between the legit release, and the hacked release)

DRM is the developers (or distributors) way of saying "we don't trust our licensed users to do the right thing". It is that obvious lack of trust that so many (paying) users find offensive.

Many other developers are happy to let users install the software on a workstation and a laptop, allowing the single owner of both machines to move between computers as is convenient.

The average user has moved beyond using a single device to perform their duties - we have a desktop, a laptop, handhelds, phones - yet still the license treats the user as if they only access a single device.

Of course the user could just purchase multiple licenses for everything - to allow for the 10% of time the software will be used on each device.

I would like to be able to purchase and use the software, but if licensing and DRM is going to interfere with fair use - I may find that DRM causes me to look elsewhere.

That is when DRM no longer makes good business sense...
        May 23 2011 at 7:53am
Roberto i purchased around 150 licenses (mainly apps), some cheap but some more than 500$. (some for personal use and some for commercial too).
when possible, i not buy any drm software... its really annoying.
im a honest user, but i want developer justify my payment updating the software, ... and he will have my full support and money.
Every KID can "jump" the DRM, we want another value as customers.
        May 23 2011 at 8:00am
Robert Reese Editor's Note: This comment was moved from the WeBuilder 2010 comments board, where it originally appeared.

Hi Gatis,

==Still no sale, especially when you require internet activation and hardware identification

=Actually you can use the product if you do not have internet connection. Only when (and if) the internet connection will be available, your installation will be logged to our server.

What if there is no server to contact? Will the software be able to be used to its fullest extent, indefinitely? How many times can the hardware change, and what hardware is ID'ed? I use 11 partitions spread out over six harddrives, plus numerous virtual machines and drive emulators; not all are on all the time. And I use three operating systems on that machine alone. That is just my home machine. Depending on what I'm doing, I might change video cards or other peripherals due to a lack of slots in the machine. My laptop is dual-bootable yet has three different MS OS VMs. In the fall, I will be upgrading my work machine to be even more insane than my home machine.

Are you beginning to see the problem with hardware identification? And in all locations, lightning is an issue, about once per year taking out a NIC card (nevermind the router and modem); thankfully they are cheap.

==too easy for things to go awry and the customer is left unable to install or use the software

=This is not true. You will be able to use the product in any case.

Just to clarify: if your company goes bust, or I use this on a computer that has no internet connection, WeBuilder 2010/2011 will work without phoning home?

==Further, how do we know what kind of data is being sent from our computer to your server?

=I guess you can not, unless you have good knowledge in IP packet tracking from your computer. There are tools that can do that. Also, if you contact us at our support email address, I will share any specific details you might want to know and are worried about.

Fox/Chicken House.

=In the end, if you are honest user, you do not need to worry about the license activation.

Then you assume all users are dishonest by virtue of using the online activation tied to hardware identification. Interesting.

The fact is, if purchased, I expect to be able to use WeBuilder wherever and whenever I need, without worry that it will not work or that it is phoning home. This is not to say I need or want the ability to use it concurrently - using two computers to accomplish the same task is unnecessarily redundant, not to mention a real PITA to do - so only one machine is ever used, period. However, simply offering the ability to concurrently use WeBuilder on up to three machines is sufficient for all your honest users... after all, that's all most users ever need or want, and most of those would never use it concurrently anyway.

Oh, by the way, honest users like me do indeed dislike digital rights management. The reason you doubt this is because you distrust your users. I posit that you lose more sales to your DRM than you would to piracy.
        May 23 2011 at 7:59am
_*_ Roger, why is it that users who speak against DRM have their writing labeled as "rants," "crusade," and "tirade"?

This topic is important enough to your customer base to speak about it. I do not think relegating DRM to a forum thread will make it go away or minimize it; people know what they like and dislike.

In fact, people here (myself included) have purchased products for the sole reason to support DRM free software. I do not see people buying solely because a product has DRM attached to it.

I contend that speaking about DRM is a product specific topic. In fact it is the one part of the product that will impact every single user of the product, and vendors need to understand how potential customers think.

I think it would be better to see that many users desire DRM free products that treat customers as legitimate paying users, not pirates in waiting.

Thanks for hearing me out.
        May 23 2011 at 9:30am
Roger Thomasson Sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree -- not appropriate on product-specific pages.
        May 23 2011 at 3:20pm
_*_ Roger, the upcoming sale of My Digital Documents 2011 shows how DRM is legitimate specif topic when talking about a the software for sale.

We will have to agree to disagree and you run the boards and site, so you make the rules, but without the My Digital Documents 2011 exchange the true DRM would have never been known or understood.
        Jun 3 2011 at 8:47am
Roger Thomasson There's clearly a marked difference between the exchange on the the My Digital Documents page and the anti-DRM +1s/rants that often clog up other conversations. That's why we didn't moderate it.
        Jun 3 2011 at 10:18am
_*_ Roger, I agree. I was only trying to make it clear from my earlier post, that talking about DRM is a software specif topic and has a place not simply in this thread, but also belongs in the software comment area; that is all.

Rants are not needed or welcomed on DRM or any other topic I think. Thanks again for hearing me out.
        Jun 5 2011 at 6:36am
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